Matt Nuzzo: What's up everybody? Matt Nuzzo hanging out here in the Real Boardloft with none other than Ryan Arzy. What's up Ryan?
Ryan Arzy: Yeah Matt, how are you?
Matt Nuzzo: Oh, good. Here we go. We're going cleaned up. For those that don't know, Ryan Arzy is a pro-level foiler. He's out there doing crazy things like M2O, right? He's doing guiding at Namotu. He is known on Instagram as LA Foiler.
Ryan Arzy: That's me.
Matt Nuzzo: Just a frothing foiler, frothing about sessions, and now he's working full-time for Foil Drive. So he's here to come and give us an education about what board is right for you. So Ryan, what's the right board for Foil Drive?
Ryan Arzy: Depends where you're at. It depends how much you weigh. But luckily everyone's on board with how the range should work. And the best place to start is with more volume. So when you're first learning, you want to be like 80 liters plus. If you're very, very beginner, you'd want to go 100 plus liters, somewhere where you could just stand on the board and just get going forward. Most people when they're learning the process is, you know, riding on your stomach, getting to your knees, and then popping up. So volume is your friend in the beginning, but as you get better, then you could start to size down like what you have here.
Matt Nuzzo: Cool. I love to hear that you're starting with a beginner because at Real that's really what we're doing is we make new riders every day. We've been doing that for 26 years and Foil Drive has been great because it gets a lot of people into the water and on foil and as you know you spend more time on foil.
Ryan Arzy: Yeah.
Matt Nuzzo: You've got a better life 100%. So more time on foil getting out there, bigger board. What he said is volume, right? 80 liters or more, right? So for an example, we've got an 80 liter AppleTree here. So this is kind of the smallest you would want to start on. Higher volume means more surface area and it's also going to be a bigger sweet spot. So bigger the board, bigger the sweet spot, right? When you get on a foil, like it's you can kind of turn it with your pinky, right?
Ryan Arzy: Yeah. Yeah. They're all really sensitive.
Matt Nuzzo: Big board is going to give you that, you know, ease of use to not only get on a plane and get going, but also to have that bigger sweet spot.
Ryan Arzy: Yeah. When most people are learning, and I've taught a lot of people for their first time foiling ever on a Foil Drive, and there's a few different ways to go about it, but I've always found that if you could just stand up and be really stable when you're standing and find where you need to stand on the board, the better it is. If you have to get going kind of quickly and then stand up and get that planing speed up, it's a little bit harder and you're managing multiple things at once. You know, you're managing the throttle, you're managing where you're going to stand, and then the foil wants to lift while you're moving. So, those are all factors that make it harder for beginners. So again, a bigger board will also get you off the water easier because there's less drag, right? Having that big board is going to be your stable foundation. We found even teaching at Real, we're teaching people up to 150 liters that have zero foiling experience, kind of not a lot of board sports experience. You just put a giant board out there and it gets you that feeling of flight. And if you're on foil and you're 2 inches off the water, you're still on foil and getting that glide and feeling it. So, bigger boards, right? So something like this AppleTree, there's a different brands out there. You want to have a board that's going to be efficient. We're going to get into that in a little bit more tech as we get into the intermediate advanced rider. So something big, that's how you want to start. All right. Intermediate riders, what are we looking for?
Matt Nuzzo: Intermediate riders, you want something that's still stable, but that gets off the water good. If you have something that's really, really short and really wide, it's harder to manage cuz any e-foil or foil assist, the nose wants to come up. You have all this thrust pushing you up. And if the board's too short, it's hard to get up and forward and get the board planing because your goal in taking off is get everything planing and then take off smoothly. Just like you're a pilot in a plane, you don't want to just pull the thing up and just take off and stall. You know, there's mid-length options, but there's also these happy medium of these surf shapes which are a little bit shorter, not too short, but not too wide. It's just like this happy. This is this board here. This is the surf, you know. So, just to give a comparison, we've got a surf style board here in 36 liters. Then a mid-length board here in 45 liters. So you can see this one's more drawn out. It's going to be narrower and as you're getting a narrower board, it's going to go rail to rail quicker. But that longer length, like you're saying, is giving you good glide and takeoff. Mid-lengths became really popular for drive because a lot of people were starting out with Foil Drive with older style wing boards where kind of I call the bar soap wing board, right? That was like really thick, really short, and really wide. And those things just plowed and pushed water for a Foil Drive. That did not work. So everyone went to this mid-length design which gave you a lot more efficiency to take off and people were dropping down from that 80 liter down to like you know the 55 to 75 liter range with a mid-length that gave you a lot lower volume but also with a narrower width gave you good rail-to-rail turning but still having that efficiency to take off still able to kind of ride a variety of foil sizes.
Ryan Arzy: Yeah. So, like the mid-length boards, like where they're at now, like especially this one, they found that happy sweet spot of length to width and efficiency because if you have something that's too narrow, like if you were to put your Foil Drive on like a downwind board, like a super narrow thing, it's going to be pretty tippy. And then it also tracks weird when you're touching down and when you're riding and maybe just a little too long and too thick. So, having something that's not too thick, a little bit thinner and more connected, not too long. So yeah, that's the biggest thing is the mid-length allows you to size down with your foil and ride something that's a little bit more maneuverable and then for heavier riders to just take off on a smaller board, right? So you can size down in volume with the mid-length and take off easier. And the whole point behind Foil Drive is we want to minimize the amount of weight. We've stripped the thing down to the bare bones of all you need to get you on foil and then get the thing out of the way because when you're foiling, you don't want to have a heavy board. It's kind of intimidating if you're riding in waves and it's like you've got 70 pounds on a leash behind you. So, we've made it as simple as possible and you know the battery is light as possible. So, you want a good board and a good foil that makes it really efficient to take off.
Matt Nuzzo: Nice. Now, let's move on to the advanced rider.
Ryan Arzy: Yeah. Advanced rider. So, you're in this advanced rider range and I've seen you ride boards down to what 14 liters or some tiny little potato chips, right? That takes quite a bit of technique to get going, you know? So most people in the advanced riding like you're hanging out with a lot of pros. What are they riding as far as their volume size and general style of board?
Matt Nuzzo: Yeah, I'd say it depends on how much you weigh. So I always talk about weight in terms of kilos. So I weigh about 70 kilos right now. So I ride about half that on average as my like advanced sports. So like 35 30 liters. For a while I was riding a 40 liter because I wanted my friends to be able to try it. And then I went on this test to be like, "All right, what's the lowest volume I can flat water start?" So for anyone that's advanced, I really really dare you to go and do this or even intermediate advanced or you're really comfortable with a takeoff. That's the most important thing with Foil Drive. If you can consistently take off, get to your knees, get your back foot down first, and then get standing consistently and take off, that means you're ready to size down and to see like how low can you really go. And you know, for you, for example, you've got this 36 liter board here. How much do you weigh?
Ryan Arzy: 170 pounds. I'm American so I don't understand kilos. Kilos. So I think that's about like Can you give me kilos? 170 pounds. You got a conversion. You're the math.
Matt Nuzzo: That's like 75 maybe. Maybe maybe 80. But okay. A little more than you.
Ryan Arzy: Yeah. A little more than Let's call it 75. But um yeah, exactly. So of course the shape of the board matters when you go into low volume. You want something that planes well. But the biggest thing is why we size down is because it feels so much better in the air and it's easier to control and you have less mass to manage, right? When you're touching down or when you're turning and all that, a smaller board is going to be easier for anyone to surf than a bigger board. And same with pumping. Pumping any of that just feels more natural, feels more like toe foiling or prone foiling. You're obviously carrying about 13 more pounds with a Foil Drive. Less weight, you know, so it just you're dropping kind of weight and so you still want to have performance. This board for reference. I do like that wider surf style board because it gives you more stability even though you can drop down. You're getting a board that's thinner. So, it does go rail to rail quickly, but the width for me for the surf style board feels a lot better. I'm kind of in the, you know, advanced intermediate range, not going kind of to the level where you are hitting white water and stuff. Um, you know, but the, you know, I'm kind of running away from me too. It depends on how big it is. I see. And uh you know so the having that wider board gives you that stability and as you really drop down in volume and mid-lengths they get super narrow. Right. Right. So like a lot of people are going kind of the surf style and really kind of coming down in size in that version.
Matt Nuzzo: Yeah. And so this board conversation would not be complete without talking about the trench board. So what is the deal with trench board and who's it for?
Ryan Arzy: Yeah. So Foil Drive was created to fit on any board. So that's the nice thing like the board you already have or a wing board or any sort of foil board that uses standard tracks, you can slap it on there, but then you've got this unit between the board and the mast which creates drag when you touch down. I mean, where are you going to put the battery? That that's the best way to do it on a retrofit system is to sandwich it between the board and mast. But then people were like, what if we put a cavity inside the board so it hides the drag from the unit? And that's how the trench board was born. So, the trench board is essentially a cutout in a really good shape that's, you know, been made for foil driving and foil assist riding. And, you know, there's still some adjustability in there, but it's designed to wrap around the board and make it so that when you're motoring or taking off or touching down in waves, there's less drag and it's closer to your feet. You feel more connected. So, this is more of an intermediate to advanced feature that you'd want in a board. Beginners don't necessarily need trench boards. If anything, the trench boards are in lower volume ranges. You know, if it's your first time ever riding an assist or if you're a new assist customer, trench board isn't necessarily the right board for you.
Matt Nuzzo: Let's revisit that. We get a lot of people that are going to trench board right off the bat and it's not the right board for you because it's going to be more responsive and it's harder to manage and then it's also just it's too much. It's like you're actually holding yourself back.
Ryan Arzy: Yeah. And the biggest thing too which is tricky about trench boards is because we've tried to make it so tight and hydrodynamic on a lot of them you have to remove the unit from the board. So the four screws and so there's like an extra bit of like 5 to 10 minutes of setup time when you go out and it's less plug and play than just leaving it on the board and sliding it in there. So you know there are some trench boards out there that have a wider cutout or a cover or something like that so that you could switch it out but you know you're changing the volume of the board the board becomes a designated Foil Drive board. So, it's definitely something for those intermediate to advanced, someone that has experience, has their pop-up dialed, and you want your trench board to be that second board to where you're ready to size down. This is your designated setup. You want to go full performance.
Matt Nuzzo: I've really found the trench board was most relevant with people that are hitting the white water, that are, you know, riding really small, lower volume boards. We do see people kind of getting these and getting too far ahead of themselves and having taking a, you know, a lot longer to actually get going because the trench board's holding them back. That said, hey, the feel is great. The thinner board is great. They really work well for the right customer, but make sure that you know this isn't your first board is the main thing.
Ryan Arzy: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And the other thing too with trenches, and a lot of people don't realize this, is it actually shortens the mast relative to like a standard board. So like when you have a standard setup and you have that, you've got an extra 2 inches of clearance. So when you're motoring around, if you're going upwind, it's choppy water. It's actually easier to motor around on a standard board, right? Trench, and then on a trench. So that's why if you don't have like that intuition to keep the board low to the water, if you went from a standard board to trench board, you'd be like, "Oh, wow. Keeping the motor in the water is slightly more technical." But yeah, motoring around smoother, skipping off the water smoother. The takeoff is easier on a smaller board on a trench. So that's why a lot of people have gravitated towards that. So definitely your second or third board for Foil Driving, you want to start out like with the bigger boards and just a standard kind of shape when you get going. But the other cool thing is like on this setup like you can still size down and ride like a standard board. So if you wanted a trench board that's 14 liters, you can't even get it thick enough to get the trench in there. Exactly. Right. So I experiment with trenches. I still ride trenches. I think there's a lot that goes into like a good trench design. But for convenience a lot of time I just slap it on my current board.
Matt Nuzzo: Yeah. Great. Yeah. Awesome. And so the final thing we want to talk about is connectivity, right? So that's a really important factor. A lot of people will be kind of freaking out about connectivity, like, hey, does this board have good connectivity, not good connectivity? Tell me how that works with foil.
Ryan Arzy: Yeah. So I'll make it really simple and explain how it works. So there's a little antenna inside the Foil Drive eBox. And the miracle behind this is that it sends a signal through the bottom of the board through the tracks inside the foam. It uses the foam as like an antenna. And then wherever the board is sticking out of the water, it connects to the controller, which is the receiver. So if you've sunk a board completely and no part of the board is out of the water, it's not going to connect to the controller. When it's underwater, put the controller against the board and it will connect. But the things that block connectivity is water. Water is super dense. It doesn't want to let Bluetooth signal pass through it. So that's why we're using the board as that antenna. Carbon fiber also conducts electricity. It takes that RC frequency and it blocks it. So if you had a board that was 100% fiberglass, no carbon, it has great connectivity. Great. But carbon fiber is stronger, it's stiffer, almost all it's lighter. Yeah. Almost all foil boards use carbon. So the way to know if your board has good connectivity or not is to test it. But we always suggest that you put foam in the tracks. So the foam that comes with your Foil Drive that you put it in here. It blocks water from getting in between the unit and and the track. So, we're minimizing the amount of water that gets between the unit and that's what helps boost the signal. Another thing that boosts signal is if a board is made for Foil Drive, they put these fiberglass windows in there. If it's glass with balsa, etc., or even vent plugs, like a board that has inserts or vent plugs, anything that is an opening inside the carbon fiber, it allows the signal to come through. So, a lot of brands have understood this and when they're making production boards or customs or any of that, they put these windows in there to make sure that it connects good with Foil Drive if they want it to work for both. But the best solution for connectivity is the antenna, right? So, if you've gone on your board, you're like, "Oh, the connectivity is kind of rough." The easiest solution is just throw the antenna on there and any board will work with the Foil Drive in terms of connectivity. And then you can also get it modified, too. That's another way you could get I mean, the antenna is such an easy patch, too. We tell all beginners, put the antenna on your board, because then you're going to get 100% connectivity all the time. Right. And what bad connectivity looks like is you lay on your board and you pull the trigger. You pull the trigger and you're like, I want to go. It's not going right. Or you're cruising along and you're touching down. You're riding on the surface of water. You're cruising along and then the thing just stops and it feels like you hit a stick in the spokes. Right. You got a stick in the spokes. Well, kids today didn't get this. You probably never got a stick in your spokes, but I got a stick in my spokes for all those people out there that got sticks in the spokes. You know what I'm talking about. So once that happens, you're like, "Okay, I need good connectivity." So the antenna literally just is a shim that goes underneath the base plate, patch goes on the top, and then you'll get great connectivity. As you get better with riding, right, this Armstrong Surf 36 liter board has maybe a five out of 10 connectivity. It's not very good, but like he was saying, I put the controller on the inserts, I take off, and then I'm flying it in the air, and it works completely fine for what I'm doing. So, I'm not really using the antenna now. When I started with this board, I put the antenna on and it was great. So, I could go down to this size board and have full connectivity.
Matt Nuzzo: Yeah. Rule of thumb is always first pack the boxes with as much foam as you can. So, on this board here, as you can see, the T-nuts would go here. And then it also helps keep your nuts in the right place so if you do take it off the board, you know where it's at. Keeps your nuts in the right place.
Ryan Arzy: Right when I said it, I was like, "Oh, he's good." That's what he's laughing about.
Matt Nuzzo: That's our intro, Jeffrey. Yeah, keep your Exactly. And so, yeah, here on this board too, there's a vent plug, so that helps with the signal. These new Armstrong boards have a lot better connectivity than the previous mid-length shape. A lot of people don't realize this, too, but keeping the controller on the board will boost the connectivity while you're taking off. When you want to get planing and taking off, that's when you have the worst connectivity generally. So, when I'm popping up, I generally have the controller like right here as I'm getting going, and then I'll pop up that way. So that that's another way that if you have a setup with not the best connection, keep the controller sideways against the board.
Ryan Arzy: Nice. Yeah.
Matt Nuzzo: Cool. Final thing we want to talk about is just general shape, right? So efficiency is key in a Foil Drive board, right? So I've had plenty of boards that like are trench boards are made specifically for Foil Drive and they look fine, they look cool, but then you take them out and like every time you touch down, you get bucked off the nose, like you said, the board rediverts or or it's really slow to get on foil because there's a lot of drag up in this area. Some boards like I've ridden like this board's really smooth and efficient. You can kind of run the board right over the water and you don't even feel the motor box hitting. It's kind of I don't really feel like I need a trench board there. But it's because the efficiency in the board has been made so well. So, if you're finding a board that's like really sticky to take off or touching down and redirecting, that's something you want to make sure you're avoiding because, you know, just like those old wing boards, like they plowed water, right? So, efficiency in this shape, like to about here to about where your front foot is, is really critical for getting going for riding, for touching down.
Ryan Arzy: Yeah, 100%. And again, the biggest thing is is technique. If you could get a video of yourself riding, you know, talk with a coach and get some video review, that is by far the best thing that anyone can do for themselves in terms of learning how to foil drive.
Matt Nuzzo: Right on. Well, that's a good segue into why you should come to Real to learn to foil drive because we have awesome instruction here. We got one of the best places in the world to learn to foil drive. Pamlico Sound is flat water. We've got jet skis. We can go out there, learn to e-foil with the Foil Drive first, then get into Foil Drive mode, get above the motor pod, then we take you out to our wide open sandy beaches and teach you and surf it. Killer session last night. More untapped for today. If you want more reviews, reach out online realwatersports.com or give us a call shop 252-987-6000. See you guys on the water for the next sesh. Keep your nuts together.
